You Only Go Once (Y.O.G.O.)
Cheryl and Eileen explore different topics around the limited time we have on this earth to create a fully layered life. Because...You Only Go Once!
You Only Go Once (Y.O.G.O.)
Healing Verses: Laing Rikkers on Loss, Poetry, and Advocacy for Obstructive Sleep Apnea
Have you ever considered how poetry can heal the soul in the face of devastating loss and how it can raise awareness about crucial health issues such as Obstructive Sleep Apnea? This episode promises a profound exploration of these themes as we welcome Laing Rikkers, a woman transmuted by personal loss into a powerful voice for those battling OSA. Having lost her sister to this condition, Laing penned 'Mourning Leaves', a book of stirring poetry that manifests her journey through grief and serves as a beacon of understanding for those affected by OSA.
Our conversation travels through the soothing world of Laing's poetry and the poignant design of her collaborative book 'The Grief of Sleep Apnea'. Along with illustrator Kelly, Laing has managed to create a visual and emotional refuge for readers, pulling them into an authentic encounter with grief and resilience. From the delicate arrangement of words to the evocative artwork, Laing opens up about the courage and vulnerability it takes to share such intimate emotions and experiences with the world.
Towards the conclusion of our dialogue, Laing delves into her personal transitions and her newfound trust in gut instincts. She shares her upcoming ventures including her aspiration to create tranquil spaces for friends and loved ones to unwind. Our discussion ends on a note of hope and connection, as Laing's book and online presence stands as a testament to the potency of transforming personal loss into a source of comfort, understanding, and advocacy. Tune in to this moving episode to gain insight into Laing's inspiring journey and her mission to raise awareness about Obstructive Sleep Apnea.
Hi, this is Line Rickers. When you look back on your life, I hope you have a sense that you took chances and that you are able to live and love fully, because you only go once.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello, hello, welcome everyone to you. Only Go Once. I'm here with my glorious co-host, eileen Grimes, and we're here with a fantastic guest, eileen, kick us off.
Speaker 3:Thanks, cheryl. So today we have Lange Rickers, who is the leader in the field of obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA. I'm very interested to get more in depth into this, so an often hidden and potentially fatal medical condition. After her sister died of undiagnosed OSA, Lange sought solace from nature and creativity and wrote Morning Leaves, a book of poetry to help others navigate grief. Permission now is to save lives by encouraging people to recognize the symptoms of OSA and take better care of themselves and their loved ones. So welcome Lange, it's so wonderful to have you here tonight.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:It's great to be here, yeah so oh my gosh, I don't know. I feel like we could kick this off in so many different directions, but you know, I think talking about probably the beginning it seems like a beginning to end kind of timeline makes sense for all of this stuff. So you know, obviously we know that your sister had passed. You know that's what sparked a lot of the things that you're doing. Were you, were you working in obstructive sleep apnea? Prior to that, I was.
Speaker 1:I had co -founded a business that makes medical devices that treat people with obstructive sleep apnea.
Speaker 1:It's the leading alternative to CPAP, which is the face mask that blows air, and the devices that we make are oral appliances. It's a company called Prosamnes, and they are custom made for each patient and they're really comfortable and they work really well. And so we, you know, had founded this business and getting it started and, in the process, started to hear from mostly from my niece about some of the symptoms that my sister was suffering from. She was snoring very loudly and she was tired all the time, she needed to take daytime naps and experiencing moodiness, and, because of my work, I knew that those were some of the symptoms of OSA and I suggested that she get tested and, you know, for whatever reason, she unfortunately did not and she ended up in atrial fibrillation, which is highly correlated with OSA, in December of 2019. And she was only 46. It was horrible, it was really sad and really shocking and so, yeah, so that was sort of the beginning of it all, of at least the part that led to some writing and some other exploration.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So first of all, I just want to say I mean, my heart goes out to you. I am so sorry for your loss. I can't, it's unimaginable, truly to go through loss like that and I'm just so, so sorry to hear that. And I'm so grateful that you're also sharing this, because I you know there's some really wonderful things you are doing now to help others around this, and you know I'll let Cheryl talk a little bit on some of those things too, but I just am so grateful for you being here to be able to take what's happened now and then bring it out in a way that supports other people through this. So that's extremely brave of you to do that work. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, and it's very helpful to me as well. So I do hope that OSA is something that's really treatable and it doesn't need to happen to any other families. So I'm spending a lot of my time trying to get the word out and educate people and make sure people know what their options are and when they should go speak with a doctor. So it's nice it actually is sort of a gift to be in a position that I'm in where I can actually do something, as opposed to just grieving it's. It certainly is helpful. I'm sure, cheryl, you probably have found something similar to in your process.
Speaker 2:Yes, for sure, and I also echo Eileen Sentimentz. I am very sorry about the loss of your sister and I can't imagine what that was like for your nieces and for you and for your family. The one thing so, first of all, I I devoured this book, and this book that I'm referencing for the people that are on audio is called Morning Leaves. It is a beautiful collection of poetry and reflections on loss, grief and connection. Lange wrote it and the artwork is by Kelly Lehi Rading it. You know this definitely takes you away and I would imagine during your grieving process you felt like you just needed a moment, right. So can you tell me a little bit about how the book came to be in terms of your connection with nature? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I well, I should say just for context, my sister passed away right before lockdown and COVID.
Speaker 1:I live in Southern California and so, like everybody else, you know, we were stuck at home and and really frightened deeply right by everything that was happening and what we were seeing around the world. And you know, one of the things that was most helpful was to get outside and to move and you know, fortunately I lived in a place where that was really enjoyable to do and you know the weather was cooperative and and all that. So my husband and I would go out every day and walk a lot and you know I think the walking was helpful, both just the physicality of it, but also just connecting with you know, the natural world was really important and just to see both the perspective of sort of how small we humans are and but also to see how sort of persistent and generative nature is and and beautiful and, and I think that you know the combination of all those things keep you hopeful and you know, and really keep you moving forward and help think, you know, keep things otherwise in really good perspective. So so that was that was really part of it and you know to to be able to take, be in a place where you know things were really blooming and there was a lot, you know they were going through the seasons, was helpful as well.
Speaker 1:And there's a little bit of going through the seasons in my book. Not not live, not quite, you know, not in a literal sense, I don't sort of say, and this is a month, but, but I do think that there was a passing through of time and and nature's metamorphosis itself is, you know, sort of a part of our own journey.
Speaker 2:So it was great. Yeah, it's really. It is a beautiful book, not only in the sense of it's literally beautiful. So, folks, if you go out to any of the major or indie on online sites, you can get to see how gorgeous it is. Your writing was so effective in that I felt like so there's a couple of mostly all the poems reflect around something in nature, whether it's fruits or plants or anything like that. Like I felt, like I could taste the pomegranates.
Speaker 3:I felt like.
Speaker 2:I could run my hands across the the dune grass, like there was just like I felt like I was in the redwoods when you were talking. So all that is exquisite and I love how you. It's a gift in two ways. Number one it's a gift to those, I think, who are grieving. People would receive this as a way to reflect and just feel calmer. And then the second piece is you give a lot of resources around OSA, so I want to come back to that a little bit. How did you even get started with sleep apnea? How did how did that become your ultimate interests in life?
Speaker 1:So I spent about 20 years in private equity investing in medical device companies, and I was working with a couple of the other co founders of this business at another company. The original product for Prasamnus was developed at another, at a predecessor company, and Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just started sort of taking off and we got very excited about it and we sold off all of the other assets of the business and and reinvested in this one and it's been fantastic. We you know it's grown. We founded it in 2016 and it's grown very nicely and we were lucky enough, we took it public on Nasdaq last December. So, congratulations, yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's doing really, really well and it's yeah, it's it's just a special combination of, you know, being able to do something that you feel passionate about and, you know, have it thrive as a business, and so it's going great.
Speaker 1:I feel I feel very lucky to be in the spot that. I mean, you know it's one of those luck is a lot of. There's a lot of hard work and being in the right place, yes, but it's, it is. It's a great thing and you know, like I said, to be able to Put my professional knowledge to work to educate people around, something that I feel, so you know, personally connected to is Is a really exceptional thing to get to do. I really I don't take that for granted for a second, and there's just a lot. There is a lot to do because there's, you know. I'll just spout off a couple of the statistics, because there's there are Estimated to be one billion people globally who have OSA and 80% are undiagnosed. Wow, you've got lots and lots of people who you know are at risk for Serious cardiovascular Diseases, plus diabetes and cancer. And so, you know, to help educate people and and you know, in the case of personas, also give them treatment options that are alternatives to CPAP are really important because a lot of people, even if they Think that they might have OSA, they're so frightened that they're going to Get diagnosed and have to wear a mask for the rest of their lives that they'll put their head in the sand and just ignore it.
Speaker 1:And then the other thing is it. It has historically been quite challenging for people to get diagnosed because, yep, people needed to go into sleep labs and who wanted to do that? Unfortunately, home sleep testing has really become Very widely acceptable, except not acceptable accepted and reimbursed by medical insurance, and so it's gotten easier and easier for people to get diagnosed. And you know now there's just other kinds of treatments available and choices for patients to make. So Hopefully, you know, people will become more aware, you know they'll get more educated, they'll get more comfortable with doing the sleep test and then they'll feel more comfortable that they can Find a treatment that works for them, because sleep apnea isn't something that can be cured at this point.
Speaker 1:It does require nightly, lifetime treatment. So a patient has to find Something that they're comfortable with it, that works for their lifestyle, and so you know that's been the thing with personas. That's been so Exciting is because it really it looks sort of like invisible line. It's, you know, clear mouth guard right, a little bit heavier gauge, and it has posts on the upper and lower splint to hold the jaw forwarding and keep the airway open. But you can drink water and you can talk and you can get up and use the restroom, and so it's, it's very easy for people.
Speaker 1:It's, you know, socially it doesn't have the kind of stigma that people worry about and it's not interfering with your bed partners Sleep because there's no noise, there's no hoses, there's. You know those are the things that you can do, you know those kinds of things. So those factors matter. I mean, we're dealing with people and they're day to day, real lives and you know, to make sure that patients will adhere to the treatment is Is a big factor and so so, yeah, so it's one of the reasons that it was great to go public was just help to, you know, get the word out and make sure that people you know knew that there was, you know, these kinds of alternatives out there and and so you know we're we're investing in salespeople and public relations and those kinds of activities.
Speaker 3:Sure, all the getting the word out piece of that. It's incredibly important, and Standing out above the crowd is certainly something that is can be difficult to do and so important to to get those things. I'm fascinated and definitely I want to look into this. So for the technology that you're using right now, actually, let me step back real quickly. We talked a little bit about symptoms. Are there? Are there sort of symptoms people can share? I mean, we say that 80 of people are undiagnosed. So what does that look like? We so, and also none of it. We're not physicians telling you that this is Correct, what it is. So if you have any concerns, talk to your doctors. This is not a place for us to prescribe anything. Just put that little caveat in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, um so, um yeah, my first recommendation is always speak to your doctor and a primary care doctor, a pulmonologist, a cardiologist, even a, you know, a sleep trained dentist is is a good resource, but a so the the typical symptoms are snoring, daytime sleepiness, waking up with a dry mouth, waking up sort of gasping. Um, depression is is correlated with it, and it's often the person's bed partner who is the one who Um recognizes it. And so you know you hear the snoring, they hear the gasping or the or the pausing of of breathing, and it often scares them. So you know, in the industry people talk about the elbow test. You know if, if someone's needing to elbow you, it's because they're concerned and because either you're keeping them awake from your snoring or because they're worried that you're not breathing, and so that's that's often the one of the leading indicators that gets people to talk to their doctor.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, we just did a study and most people, even if they know that they're snoring, aren't sure who to talk to. That is a concern as well. Our direct customers are sleep dentists. These are specialized dentists who have been trained in sleep medicine. As you said, there are resources in my book that point to different websites that have information. Also, my website, langreakerscom, has links to these websites. There's also we've recently created a website and it's easy to remember because it's no more OSA and it's KNOW. Of course, it's also the plan words of N-O-D-O.
Speaker 2:Okay, show us it's.
Speaker 1:KNOW no more OSAcom. If you go there, to that site, it will give a questionnaire that will tell you whether or not you're at high risk and it takes you through some of the those kinds of questions and then has a provider link if someone is interested in finding a specialist. But speak to your own doctor as well. There are lots of well-qualified people who can help with the situation.
Speaker 3:It's incredibly helpful. I have family members that have it and have used CPAPs and all of those things. It is incredibly helpful to have that knowledge at the very minimum, to be able to go to talk to a professional to get what you need done. One thank you for sharing that. Two, I am so fascinated with all these new capabilities. There's this that you have with prosomeness. There are these new breast pumps for women that don't have all the. We're connected to every single thing and it's just a lot more discrete and makes you feel more normal. If quote unquote, I love the amount that technology can truly help people live their lives day to day in a way that makes them feel comfortable and confident. This sounds like another one of those options. But, yeah, so with that, you said your primary target, or clients, are working with these dentists. I didn't even know that was a thing a sleep dentist. I didn't know what you were. I'm very curious. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:They're trained typically as regular dentists, and then they go back for additional education and so they get the training and then the way that the sort of path for a patient is that they need to be diagnosed by a physician because it's a serious medical condition. Yeah, the sleep study is administered and read and the diagnosis is given by a physician and then, depending on the treatment that the patient is getting, they direct the patient to different kinds of specialists. So, for instance, if you're getting a CPAP, they'll send you to a respiratory therapist who will fit the mask.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if you're getting an oral appliance, the most typical is for it to go to a sleep dentist, and so they, because they're used to working in the oral cavity, they are specialists in that area and occasionally ENTs. Particularly in Europe it's common for ENTs also to work in the oral cavity, but in the US it's largely sleep dentists, and it's a specialty that many of them are getting into, and I think, particularly as the technology develops and gets better and better and the medical community gets more comfortable with oral solutions, it's a feedback loop that the doctors are comfortable referring the patients. The more they need the referrals to the dentists, the more dentists get into it, and so it's definitely a growing and strengthening field.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I mean it makes so much sense. I even just for me at least I am a. I have Bruxism, so I'm an excellent teeth grinder at night, and so having dentists be able to go and then be able to see and understand those kinds of things and how that links to other health things that are going on, is just incredibly helpful, and I think there's even some cancer screenings that dentists have been able to do recently too. I just it's it's kind of amazing how the field has grown to be able to look at that sort of holistic health, not just within what's happening in the mouth.
Speaker 1:So yeah, there's a lot of growing understanding of larger health issues being identifiable in the mouth, so yeah, so OK, so back to the book stuff.
Speaker 3:Did you know you wanted to be a published author your whole life?
Speaker 1:No, I had no plans to write a book at all. I, you know, I do have lots of friends who you know sort of on their bucket list of things to do, and it was not online. I did not think of myself that way and it was the way it came about. Was I read Julia Cameron's the Artist Way during COVID and I was looking to do something more creative. I had this need to make something and I actually thought that it would be sculpture or jewelry or something sort of tactile and physical. But I it was. I had no skills I had, I had no tools. I was in lockdown.
Speaker 1:So and she recommends writing a journal every morning before doing anything else. So you wake up and you have to write three pages before even speaking your first word. And so, wow, I really adhered to her advice and if you haven't read her book, it's just I thought it was fantastic and you know it's now been around 25 years. I think it's right. It's really tried and true in that way. So the poems were really all written in that very early morning, sort of fuzzy while I need between dream state and being fully awake, and that was important for what I was dealing with. I needed to be able to get below the analytical head and sort of for into what was going on, you know, more at the soul level, and I hadn't written much poetry before and it was just sort of what came out and I had.
Speaker 1:Every morning I would wake up and I felt very connected to a particular plant and that and it was, and that's what they all became. They were sort of I was processing some emotion or some experience and I would have this and I wasn't over thinking it. It just sort of showed up and and it helped me work through a lot of things and and it was just a gift, I it was in one of your sort of here Sometimes people who write songs say like I could just hear it and it was. That was more of the experience I had than actively writing something. It was more just listening to what was in my head and my body and and getting it out on paper. So it was great and and I I ultimately, you know, at first I had, you know, months of journals and some of them were just, you know, gobbledygook, nothing Of course.
Speaker 1:Others you know that I thought were worth saving and and I was really very in touch with this idea of my sister leaving her daughter before she was ready to go. I have no doubt of that. And so this sense of gosh. What if I go? What about my children? What have I not told them? I was doing a lot of like. You know, you have to make your bed when you go to someone's house, or something Right.
Speaker 1:It was little things, but then also wanting to make sure the bigger things of like, do you know me, do you know who I am, if something happened to me? And so I thought, well, I should type up some of this because I could explain it to them in a way that I thought would be informative. And so I started with that process and then realized that they weren't, as they were more universal, they weren't as truly personal or uniquely or exclusively personal. So in a better way is it? And so started sort of organizing them and then sort of hemmed in how I look, do they share this with anybody?
Speaker 1:And I was very apprehensive and self-conscious and unsure of it. And so I have a couple of friends who are real writers and I reached out to them and they were wonderful, they were really encouraging and that was helpful to have people sort of give those initial nods. And I needed that. I needed somebody to say like, okay, you're just fine here and you can keep going and pursue it. And so I did. I felt like there were little breadcrumbs every time I had these kinds of doubts. I don't know, the universe would just put something in front of me that might be oh, all right, I guess I got to keep going, or I could read something that would be like, oh, that's still sort of like a sign like I got to keep going, I'd meet somebody, or whatever it was. So it was a really special, probably once in a lifetime kind of experience that I got to have, and so I felt lucky, I'm very lucky, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, so at this point I might as well just leave, because I think you and Cheryl are going to have a lot. So go on, Cheryl.
Speaker 2:It's really funny because hearing you, it sounded very similar. And Eileen, you wrote a book too. So I'm sure there were moments, as Lang was talking, that was definitely like oh yeah, I went through that, you betcha, I found that my writing was the best at 4.30 in the morning. I have two really weird dogs that insist on eating at 4 o'clock in the morning, so I get up with them, feed them, and then I would get onto my phone and go oh, I just thought about this and type it down, and then I would conk out for the day and that's kind of how a lot of my poems got written.
Speaker 2:I also went through this serious like I don't think this is a good idea, I don't know. And Eileen was barking at me, our friend Mae was barking at me. I had a whole bunch of friends that were going no, keep going, this will be helpful. And I actually shut down everything. So I'm self-published. I know that you are not self-published, but I'm self-published. So I definitely shut everything down for a month. I mean I had finished with the illustrator, I had finished with the editors and I was like I don't think this is going to. I don't know, I don't think so. And then it felt like the end of 2022 and the beginning of 2023, in particular, chose violence, like it just felt like everyone around me was losing somebody and it just felt heavy and I thought, all right, and I always had my one friend, julie, in the back of my head going I feel like this book will help people.
Speaker 2:And I said OK, so I finished it and I put it out there and I almost threw up and it was fine and it went out there, it's fine. So I just I hear a lot of what you're saying and it actually gave me great comfort. I'm sorry that you had discomfort, but it gave me comfort in knowing that the process was very similar for you, because I know for me I was just out of my mind most of the time, going like oh, I don't know if this is going to happen or not. I'm so glad I did it. I'm hoping that it's not the end for me. In terms of writing, is this something that you want to pursue or do you really think like this is maybe this is it for me, or do you want to pursue other writing? Since you have all those other journals, do you think that there's other books in there waiting to be birthed?
Speaker 1:I have a draft of something else that I'm playing with and I'm kind of waiting to see how this one does and Kelly and I have talked I know she also would be interested in. We had so much fun. I mean we really just loved it and the process of collaborating with her was as good as it gets. I mean we just we were able to connect every day and provision for it was really similar and we were able to just be somewhat playful with it in terms of wanting it to have it and needed to have a certain gravitas because of the subject. But I also wanted it to have some of the exploration and the feeling of like a children's book where you're looking for things, like I always loved the Where's Waldo or the Richard's Scary, or like where you were looking for the little details. So we have a lot of fun, you know, put even like if you've got the book in front of you, even on the cover, like a little tiny ladybug who's you know right under where it says grief.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like these little tiny touches that maybe someone notices and maybe they don't, but we did and we you know, and you know choosing the ribbon and you know wanting the linen and all of the details of how it looked and felt and the weight of the paper and the density of the art throughout it, and I felt really strongly that it have enough space in it.
Speaker 1:I feel like when you're moving, you can't process very or as much as you normally can. Like you know, everything's a little bit in slow motion, like you're underwater, and so to be able to just have a little light and space between things, and truthfully, you know, I wouldn't be surprised. I said, certainly for myself when I was first going through it, I maybe could have looked at the pictures. I couldn't read one that, but life, that first month or so I just Mm-hmm, and, and so you know that that may end up being you know what's appropriate for somebody at one moment. And then maybe they'll read a poem or two at a time, or maybe Eventually they'll sit down and read it, start to finish what it whatever.
Speaker 1:The nice thing is, it kind of lends itself to meeting people where they are at the time and so so, yeah, so we had fun doing it and I think we would love to do it again. But if, if the world says this is great and we'd love more of it, then great. I, otherwise I, you know, I have to Sort of go, okay. Well, maybe that was something that was really wonderful to do and I'll move on and spend more time on my Day job or whatever it might be. So. So we'll see, but it's, you know, people have been extremely nice and you know it's early days, so it's it's hard. I'm sure you have this too, but what made both of you where people go well, how's it going Right? I have no idea. Like you know it's not. You know it's not a complete failure and I'm not on the New York Times bestseller list.
Speaker 1:It's right that right past middle, I don't know, but I I feel happy. You know, it's like Just having even a couple people, particularly people that I don't know. Yeah, see, this really Matter to me, or I touched me or I related to it, or those Comments. I don't know if people realize how Important that is to hear for me.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's really because it's the reason to do it, Otherwise I would have, sure, you know, kept it for my kids and put it in a drawer, and and so you know, I think that notion of helping others is such a gratifying piece of this whole process, and so I, you know that Feels good, so I like, sure sure.
Speaker 2:Well, the last time I checked, I am part of this world and I hope you do more of this because it is really. It's an exquisite book and it is a gift for Anybody who purchases it and anybody who will receive it as a gift. I just think it's. It is a lovely, lovely book and I love, in particular, how you had that wonderful partnership with your, with your illustrator, your artist. I my story on my artwork because mine is not as detailed as yours, mine is mostly section breaks and things like that.
Speaker 2:I'm a big fan of shell Silverstein and it was that I wanted to capture that nostalgia and I had talked to my former art teacher who we had interviewed, and she is the department head of forensic illustration right now at Penn West and that is in Erie, pennsylvania, and I, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. So I was like, hi, would you be willing to illustrate? And after she got done, laughing because she's involved in 80 bajillion things yeah, I get. If you listen to that podcast you would understand why. And she said but I have a lot of students that are looking for experience and she hooked me up with Olivia and Olivia Sutton for those that are listening out there, she is going to light the art world on fire and she kind of got it.
Speaker 2:And I love it. When you know, writers and artists kind of connect in that special way, and I loved hearing your story about that as well, because once they get it it's almost like your words have that extra Substance to it. Right, because everything kind of connects. And I felt that way about yours too. The writing was exquisite, but I love the way how the pictures it gave that additional feel of you know, being enveloped in something so beautiful.
Speaker 1:So you know Kelly is an incredibly generous Artist and she put, she spent a year and a half doing. You know they're almost 80 paintings in here and she it. But you know it also is really nice to she talks about how she's been painting. You know she's been painting for whatever many years, for years, and For her it was a really special process because often she's painting, you know, a bird or a landscape or an animal of some sort, but they weren't always hooked to something, whereas, you know, this was a body of work with a very clear purpose and a direction, and and so I think that for her was Was a special opportunity as well. And so, yeah, we spent some, we had so much fun. I mean, you know we would meet.
Speaker 1:She lives in Connecticut, not far from where my parents have a place, and I, you know, we would meet periodically and you know we'd go through the you know color of the background of the papers and then you know which ones would follow which, and you know and then which of the little paintings on the you know right side would go with the bigger one. You know, and just making you know what was symbolic with what, and it was to have somebody as Entwined in the process as I was needed, a Different kind of process than I had had experience before and and much less lonely and and she was just. You know, she's a formal, well respected, known artist and so that also was helpful for me because I have a ton of respect. I were artists that I didn't appreciate the vulnerability that they have. I mean creating something new and different and putting it into the world.
Speaker 1:Is one of the scariest things, and particularly when you're doing it alone. So for me to have to do it in partnership with Kelly helped a lot, I mean, even though our pieces were separate in certain ways. It is that fear, right of that, of putting your son in the case of this, was a personal to to put it out into the world. And you know I tend to be very optimistic and and you know, sort of a glass half full person. But you know there's also darkness out there in the world and there's some not great people and and not nice people and you know, just sort of voluntarily. You know, go into open water is is a big thing. I'm sure both of you guys have done that. You're writing and I, having not done it before, I just didn't realize that every time an artist was putting something out there that they probably were going through that as well. So it made me a little kinder, little slower, gentler other artists too.
Speaker 3:So I told Cheryl I Watched the love. I love Brunne Brown. I just do. I watch her special on Netflix.
Speaker 3:I think it was in 2020 that that one came out, yeah, and I just like I went to it multiple times because that was while I was writing the book, right, and it talks about the man in the arena, and so I and I actually sent it to Cheryl the other day for something but also the concept that you are putting yourself out there. People can say all they want until you're also In it. One, you're gentle. You're generally more gentle and kind with other people who are also doing that and putting themselves out there, because you, you know what it takes and how much it can hurt and how much it just means so deeply to to be out there. And I guarantee you any of the three of us on this call would like.
Speaker 3:I am in high support of everyone that is doing that kind of work.
Speaker 3:I'm not gonna go in and start making comments on Twitter or whatever it is, just trying to bash somebody because they're they're doing something right there, they're in the middle of it.
Speaker 3:Like, at least try, if you're gonna give me feedback, the only people I'm gonna take feedback from or from other people who are actually doing the work too. So you know that for me at least, that was what helped combat some of those right, because it is, it's very vulnerable. It's very scary to just say, well, I don't have any control now over how people respond to this or how they see it, and To keep going like that was something that just helped in the back of my mind and now I see it, because I'm Now with Cheryl doing this and the community of people that have supported me through that and even laying I know you're with with Mary's group and stuff like that like having having those people surrounding you that are also Doing that work and being vulnerable and sharing those pieces of themselves Make it a lot easier. So you don't feel so alone, completely agree finding your community of people in this.
Speaker 1:it for me has been really important and it's and fun, like it's just the learn different things. It's been so expansive for me and you know that obviously, right where you take the biggest risks, you also grow the most and the most it can be the most rewarding. I mean, you know for me, I guess that in a lot of ways almost all of the things that I hoped to get out of the book, some ways I already have. You know I I would love for other people to you know, enjoy it and get something from it and buy it and all of those other things. But you know the most important stuff I've gotten from from the process and the people that have already sort of contributed to it all.
Speaker 3:So yeah, so I'm curious. It's just from listening to you and how you've gone even from you know some of the investment side of things into this technology piece and writing a book, it seems like you're really open to possibility. Would I be correct in saying that? It just feels like you're kind of like oh, this feels right to me and you seem really in touch with, like the gut feeling, as we call it right, and when your body is trying to communicate something, has that always been something that has just been a piece of who you are? Have you worked on it? I just I think that's so incredibly important for the opportunity for growth and for you know, for our listeners. Right, it's like well, how do I start doing this? I think the just even being able to be open to the fact that you might do something different is a huge piece of it. So I'm curious what does that look for you through your life and or what are things that you do to keep yourself open?
Speaker 1:So, yes, I would agree, I am open to possibility and I do. And I think also, as I've gotten older, I trust my gut and my instinct a lot more, I've probably. I, I guess that I think about like my book in two pieces and maybe there are good analogy for the rest of myself too, like the poems that I wrote in that sort of twilight-y, very sort of spiritual, sort of subconscious part of my brain. And I think one of my friends is like oh, that's theta, you know, that's when you're brain is, yeah, sure, and you know, but then, like the introduction was, you know, that's like the academic that's, you know, that's much more the analytical, the academic, you know, that's like the after coffee writing. And and I would say that I have both, you know, in my day to day life I have both sides also that I tend to, if I'm really making big decisions, I go with my instinct, I go with my gut and if I go against it.
Speaker 1:I almost always regret it. I mean I just I and and and. The more that I know that about the myself, the more highly tuned I get to that. And it doesn't mean that I don't use the other part of my brain to, you know, do the lists and you know, check the numbers and you know, do do the analytical sort of cross tab. But.
Speaker 1:But important decisions are, are gut decisions for me and, and probably more so than for some people, I tend to lean more that direction and yeah, I think for other people, I think a lot of that comes from listening and paying attention and, as you say, sort of staying open, that that maybe you don't know the answer, that maybe you have to find it and and seek it, and you know, listen for it and see if it's out there or it is out there, whatever answered it. You know the answer is out there and you can either sort of force it or you can let it come to you. And sometimes I'm also trying to get a lot better. I don't know the answer yet, I can't make no yet and and trusting that to to just go, I can't make that decision. I'm not there yet. It's just, I don't have all the pieces, I don't have enough information I wish I did, but I don't and just sitting with it.
Speaker 3:So I think that was one of the best things that I learned when I was getting my master's in education was like, don't pretend, like you know the answer. That was. That was one of the things that the professors told us Like, if you don't know the answer, don't say. You do Say I don't know that right now. That's something I'll have to figure out and that has helped me so much in life to, I think, with everything, with my kids, with profession. You know it's like no one's going to know everything all the time. It's not possible. It's just not possible. But if you're able to figure it out after, like that, that's when you know you're able to shine on some of that stuff. But it's so important to not have to have the answer right away and that's okay and I think. I think being able to not have to rush through that has been an incredible gift in my life and it sounds like yours too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah one, one of my pet pieces people who know everything. Oh yeah, it's really tiresome and I think it's much more interesting to be with people who are asking questions and are curious and and and want to jointly find the answer, and, and then, you know, ask more questions when you have that answer and keep going, so definitely.
Speaker 3:Well, I know we, I know you have something to go to. So we have one more question. We'll kind of wrap things up, but honestly, I could keep talking to you and I will be sure to be courteous at your time. So, with that, so we have this question that we always use at the end.
Speaker 3:That is the what is on your, what is on your this is happening list, and really these are things that you know have been, have been or you're feeling in the moment of you know, as you were talking about it before at the end of my life, like what will I have said, what that I haven't done, or the impact that I really want to make, or the things that and the people that I have met and connected with. What is it that I don't want to say hasn't happened or that I haven't done yet, and it doesn't have to be traveling to you know, whatever it can be. But I think it's greater than that and just would be curious if there's anything on your this is happening list that's either coming up soon or you'd like to see happen in the next few years.
Speaker 1:So I wouldn't say it's be and all be all, but in terms of what I'm really doing right now, because I'm going through a lot of sort of transitioning and changing we sold our house where our kids grew up about two years ago and we are building a little house in Mexico and actually this week we're closing out a piece of land in Greece and we're doing some sort of slightly out there, like this sounds fun to us, like we try some different things and if we're wrong we'll, then we'll change course and we'll do something different.
Speaker 1:But I think that it felt like we want to go see the world and we want to experience other cultures and we want to try some things that are different than what we've done before, and this is a good time in our life to do that, and so because both our kids are off at college now and so it's so yeah, so that for us is sort of how do we craft this next chapter? To look and feel both fun and interesting and expand ourselves and our kids and meet new people but also hopefully create places where all the friends that we have will come spend time with us. So I don't know, that's the biggest thing, just trying to sort of stay engaged and and there's nothing like being in other places that you're unfamiliar with you have to be paying attention and and that's that's fun for us. So that's what we're up to, wow.
Speaker 3:And that sounds amazing. So yeah, I'll be there. I was going to say Eileen is mentally booking her trips.
Speaker 2:That's great. Yeah, every time I see pictures of Greece, it just looks like it looks like the most phenomenal water paintings that you'll ever see, and anytime I see anything from Mexico, I think I want to just put my toes in the sand and, you know, see the cities and do all the things. So I wish you the best of luck and I think it's going to be really exciting for you. And that's just so exciting. It's awesome. I'm playing. Would you mind giving us some of your social media places where people can connect with you?
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. The easiest place is my website, which is Langrickerscom, but I also am on LinkedIn at Langrickers and I'm at. I have a site for an Instagram site for my book, which is Morning Underscore Leaves, underscore Book, and those are probably the best three places and love to hear from people. So thank you.
Speaker 2:That's great, lang. Thank you so much for your time and for those of you who haven't seen it yet, get to an indie bookstore, get to a regular bookstore, get online and go and get yourself a copy of Morning Leaves by Langrickers, because it is a gift. On behalf of Eileen Grimes and myself, I thank you, lang, for joining us and for our wonderful audience, who listens to us talk to so many fantastic people. We thank you, and this closes out our episode of you Only Go Once. Take care everyone. Bye.
